Curse

Jeydra · May 19, 2011, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Or maybe you just can't do it but think you can - see the parable of the fox and the grapes. Plenty of DoA screenshots have been posted, just use the builds in the screenshots and be done with it.

Are you going to name an area after all?

PS: pardon me, I just get annoyed when clearly less experienced players criticize clearly more experienced players, as though it is blindingly obvious whether BiP is a good skill.

bhavv · May 19, 2011, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I'd name FoW because its easily doable, and I wouldnt think that a 30 minute area would show enough difference with or without Bip.

I only just read the hero tier thread, and it helped me to realize what I am trying to say -

I personally consider the necromancer to be a high tier hero class, and before the 7 hero update I always found that it was the top class to use as heroes (mostly due to having to fill the rest of your team with henchmen).

However, I do not believe that Bip is in the same tier as an Elite Skill or a build choice as the many other necromancer builds that could be used instead. I dont see it being beneficial at all to my hero group as opposed to simply running a few energy management skills wherever they are needed.

This doesnt mean that people cant successfully use Bip, after all you can complete the entire game with professions that some people would consider to be the worst tier, I just do not see it as being a better alternative for me to use in comparison to the top tier necromancer elites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: pardon me, I just get annoyed when clearly less experienced players criticize clearly more experienced players, as though it is blindingly obvious whether BiP is a good skill.

Define experienced. Bip is a brilliant skill to have on a player necromancer for some parts of the game, but I wouldnt be able to trust the hero AI with it, and people are actually proving this by saying how much they need to spec into extra prots and heals just to support a hero bipper. Wouldnt that be because the AI overuses it? Either reduce or even remove the health sac, and maybe give it a 5s recharge and I would gladly take it on a hero, but in its current state of 33% sac and spammable, I dont want it being used by a hero in my team. I think that blood ritual would work a lot better on a hero, as running into touch range to cast it isnt an issue in a full caster team.

And out of my curiosity, I think I might just end up loving Bip, depending on how this works out:

I'm going to try it, and will see how fast I can complete a FoW zerg run.

Dzjudz · May 19, 2011, 12:33 PM // 12:33

To call BiP blindingly obviously a good skill is a little short-sighted I think.

Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.

But what do you actually gain and do you need it?

You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar.

Furthermore, you need to slot BiP somewhere, losing that hero's elite. This will affect your team in a bigger or smaller way. Usually you'd put in on the MM, losing JB or AotL, or on the resto necro, losing a resto/blood/curse elite.

Finally, the team probably needs some additional protection and/or healing to cope with the saccing BiP hero. Yes, Smite Monks deal damage while Smiting Hexes etc, but they don't actually have spot heals that also deal damage... Life or PwK aren't viable either: you can't time Life and PwK is just once every 30 sec, and you don't really want to waste it on a single sac. No, what you need is an additional spot heal or two and extra attention from the healer.

In the end, do you even need BiP? Do your heroes suffer from energy shortages without it? And if so, can't you just switch one non-elite skill on that hero for an energy management skill instead of slotting BiP somewhere?

The Josip · May 19, 2011, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Arcane Conundrum: This is only an energy management tool if it manages to hit more than one target. Luckily, it seems to have been programmed with conditional priority behaviour to hit as many enemies as possible, regardless of class. This also makes it excellent Shatter Delusions fodder.

Feedback on this skill.

Arcane Conundrum is actually pretty useless skill overall. Illusion hero will half of the time use it on his own target (which is going to be some physical) even with casters present. At other times he will cast it just before someone is about to die. Or, he will cast it on a single targets which will cause him to lose energy, not gain, which is especially problematic when that target is physical. Casting Conundrum on enemy casters also has limited effect at least in my team build (no Panic). Spells which cast fast will still cast too fast in HM for player (or even hero) to interrupt them. Marginal improvement only in gray area.

You may barely break even with this skill. It's not worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Obviously it cant be a vanq as there are too many problems with finding the last few enemies.

Only in few Prophecy areas with huge patrol perimeter (e.g. Arid Sea). Besides, these lasts few enemies show the significance of Fall Back chain in non-elite areas (it's what I tried to point out earlier, and one of the reasons why Jaydra said she likes Eles more than Mesmers, which again is true except in my case where I run BiP so can afford mesmers to run FB).

That being said, IMO one player should do both BiP and non BiP instead of two players competing, in order to eliminate skill difference. I'm not really interested in this competition as my pro-BiP stance goes beyond time completion (it means I as a caster can play the game more as energy constrains me less), and also rests on a mathematical calculation which should have basis in practice. I don't yet have optimized BiP team build especially since I spend more time tweaking mesmer heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

But I thought the point was so you could bring more damage and kill faster... How does BiP actually benefit your team?

The problem is that none of the anti-BiP people actually are mesmer primary, which makes it difficult to explain things.

1. Player can do much more damage than a hero. In theory. A mesmer player can take e-management such as AIncantation which gives roughly +1e per second. It costs a skill slot, attribute points, and casting time.

2. BiP at low spec does +5 e regeneration. This is the equivalent of a caster with e-management. And this in case that BiPer only casts 1 BiP per 12 seconds.

In theory, BiP is powerful. In practice, it doesn't necessarily mean your team will be better off with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjuzd

Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.

But what do you actually gain and do you need it?

You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar.

By dropping PD and WNWN I spec into Command and take FallBack, hard rez, and SYG/Never Surrender/ or what I'm experimenting with right now: Bladeturn Refrain (I could use opinion whether that skill is worth it if it can be kept up indefinitely; good side is also that it's one-time-cast, so it saves my mesmer from having to use energy on that anymore except if someone dies).
My hero is now able to use Command shield (r9) for full armor bonus (I used 40/40 before but I've changed my mind about the overall usefulness of that mod for mesmers).

Instead of having mediocre conditional e-management I now have 3 higher-armored heroes with bar compression that covers all needed rez (might tweak more and remove some rezes from mesmers but it depends on other team members), chain Fall Back, and additional utility that requires no casting time.

The rest of Illusion bar is standard, minus Arcane Conundrum (but still with APain). The rest of Domination is E-Surge-Unnatural-Mistrust-Spiritual (Spiritual is arguable, but it really helps cleaning stragglers and for bar compression), and one wildcard that I use for testing the effectiveness of other skills (Empathy, Overload, extra copies of CoF, Shatter Hex..).

It's important to note that their Domination bar depends on my own. Right now I arcane echo Mistrust and use it as an opening move, followed usually by CoP, followed by echoed Mistrust, and somewhere here I cast CoF when needed. Right now this seems to be more powerful than AP build, provided that mobs are not always scattered.

Quote:

Do your heroes suffer from energy shortages without it? And if so, can't you just switch one non-elite skill on that hero for an energy management skill instead of slotting BiP somewhere?

I'll repeat it again - it's not just about heroes, BiP is for the player too, and player can make the most out of each bit of energy. Think physical. Hero melee, vs player melee, who will make most use of it? It's not different when player is caster, just to a smaller degree. Furthermore, when that player is a mesmer, there's even bigger difference due to conditional nature of most mesmer skills. CoF or Mistrust in the hands of a player is 3x more useful than in the hands of a hero. Despite popular opinion, heroes don't interrupt better than decent players - although I don't know if this is AI problem and/or intentional ANet modification.

As for hero energy shortage, you can always build a hero so it never has energy shortage. With natural e-regen a caster gains 13,3e every 10 seconds. That's not even enough energy to cast Ineptitude+Eye, or E-Surge+CoF. You can hope that burst will kill the entire enemy mob so you won't need more e-regen, but that may not be the case, especially with Fall Back which means you might attack another group before your energy fully recovers.

Quote:

In the end, do you even need BiP?

I need BiP. The question is, do you need BiP? Probably not. The reason why I use BiP is need for energy. If you don't have the need, you won't look into BiP as one of the possible solutions. Even if I decide that BiP is not worthy, the need for energy remains, and I will keep looking into other skills.

The spice must flow

bhavv · May 19, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

That being said, IMO one player should do both BiP and non BiP instead of two players competing, in order to eliminate skill difference.

I'm doing it for you, 1 hour 28 min FoW completion with Bip and 4 mesmer heroes, and no energy management skills on any other hero (except Arcane Conundrum, but that was taken for more spell slowdown and an extra AoE hex, not E management):

Its only 10/11 quests because I accidentally missed the shard wolf outside the tower due to trying to zerg rush asap, and going back for it when I realized would have wasted time and made the eventual comparison unfair (I backtracked and killed all the optional mobs at the end). I will do the same with Bip swapped to Discord later on or tomorrow, and fewer attack / support skills on my mesmers because they will need inspiration E management instead.

The bipper died 3 or 4 times, but the mesmers quickly ressed him. Renew Life was a must have as it doesnt cause health sac and gives a large party heal to make up for the time lost without the Bip healer.

But other than that, it was still a very smooth, easy and comfortable run with 4 mesmers and me playing a daze and other conditions spammer. Icehands and Hydras were normally a huge problem for me even with a panic mesmer, but my thunderclap build fixed that and made everything too easy.

I had to manually click Fevered Dreams on my target though as the hero AI doesnt like to precast it, but it really wasnt even needed, just dazing caster mobs, and spamming blind and weakness on individual melee mobs made everything easy.

Quote:

I'll repeat it again - it's not just about heroes, BiP is for the player too, and player can make the most out of each bit of energy.

Taking Bip just for the player is an even bigger waste though if your heroes dont need it. My mesmer comfortably runs Lyssas Aura with Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, Illusion of Pain, Conjure Nightmare, Accumulated Pain in PVE. You said earlier that Bip > Lyssas Aura, but I completely disagree on that if your heroes do not need it, because it isnt worth the health sac to take Bip just for you. If its just the player character and not the heroes that need energy management, then take an energy management elite for yourself on your own bar.

maxxfury · May 19, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

What i havent heard (tho i may have missed it :P1)

Is that you sacrifice one elite skill on one hero to open up a potential 10+ skills on the rest of the team (by not needing to take on char Eman skills).. And if the elite skill you sacrifice for BIP is generally not the lynchpin of a bar then its possible you will get way more for your 'money' with the utility skills available and also some other damage skills you may not have been able to either pay for or fit on otherwise..

So is the Elite you burn to take BIP a big deal? ... what would it have been that is so potent? maybe from a n/rt resto? mm? non SS curser? as i dont think their elite make or break anything to a huge degree no?

*note: on the fence, ive used it and not used for teams over the years, unbiased. And i dont run a player necro toon these days so wont comment on player based BIP.

Plutoman · May 19, 2011, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Ick, saying a team with BiP sucks because it may or may not improve times is a bit.. off.

The key being it's a balanced skill. It's not necessarily OP, and not UP to be sure. It's a skill that, because of the health sacrifice, and the energy gain returns, needs a team to be built with the skill in mind.

Whether that means a build is faster than another or not - is completely moot. It's a different way to play, and it makes a different team build that, like it or not, is likely just as effective (honestly, that depends on the rest of the team, not the BiP).

It's an effective skill, and it's useful for some people and not for others. It's a playstyle. It's effective skill when used right, but it's not an end-all skill that every team should have. It's a skill that some teams should use and some shouldn't.

@Dzjudz - instead of swapping out a skill on two-three heroes for more e-management, you can use BiP and open up 3, 6, sometimes more skills for open use without regard. That's the idea behind it, and why it can be valuable. There's so many factors involved in the skill (additional red-bar contrasting against more damage skills, loss of an elite, etc) that it's hard to gauge the exact effectiveness from just a glance. It provides tremendous support at a cost - it's up to each person to judge whether it's worth it. I've had good results with my BiP resto, so I'm appreciating it's usefulness, especially since my elite isn't needed there.

Edit: Whoops, @ Djzudz, sorry <_<

Daesu · May 19, 2011, 04:05 PM // 16:05

@bhavv: I don't think your choice of prots are good even though you have lots of red barring. With enough prots, you can make do with fewer red barring skills. As an example, I had only 2 half healers but I had fewer deaths when I cleared foundry, than you had in FoW.

I suggest that you replace your Protective Spirit with a Dwaynaway's ST rit (http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi), and make one of your mesmers a /P with SYG, given your team setup. Should be easy for you to fix that since you have mercs.

Essence Snow · May 19, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

So what I am gathering here...is that if using mesmers (player and/or heros) a BiP is must have? If some of us don't believe this soo much we are unexperienced and or don't play mesmer enough? Really? Is this what this has come to?

I'm pretty sure a bunch of us have played all 10 proffessions throughly enough to make qualified comments about each. As for being experienced...you'd have to define that further b/c I dont want to take it out of context.

Plutoman · May 19, 2011, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

So what I am gathering here...is that if using mesmers (player and/or heros) a BiP is must have? If some of us don't believe this soo much we are unexperienced and or don't play mesmer enough? Really? Is this what this has come to?

I'm pretty sure a bunch of us have played all 10 proffessions throughly enough to make qualified comments about each. As for being experienced...you'd have to define that further b/c I dont want to take it out of context.

I don't believe that impression has been given at all - rather the contrary. I quote from posts above, including my own -

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Taking Bip just for the player is an even bigger waste though if your heroes dont need it. My mesmer comfortably runs Lyssas Aura with Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, Illusion of Pain, Conjure Nightmare, Accumulated Pain in PVE. You said earlier that Bip > Lyssas Aura, but I completely disagree on that if your heroes do not need it, because it isnt worth the health sac to take Bip just for you. If its just the player character and not the heroes that need energy management, then take an energy management elite for yourself on your own bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I need BiP. The question is, do you need BiP? Probably not. The reason why I use BiP is need for energy. If you don't have the need, you won't look into BiP as one of the possible solutions. Even if I decide that BiP is not worthy, the need for energy remains, and I will keep looking into other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

The key being it's a balanced skill. It's not necessarily OP, and not UP to be sure. It's a skill that, because of the health sacrifice, and the energy gain returns, needs a team to be built with the skill in mind.

It's an effective skill, and it's useful for some people and not for others. It's a playstyle. It's effective skill when used right, but it's not an end-all skill that every team should have. It's a skill that some teams should use and some shouldn't.

Edit: Jeydra's post, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The real problem with BiP is that it 1) takes up elite slot and 2) requires some spec into Blood Magic, which is not otherwise a particularly useful line for caster primaries. Sure you can put BiP on the MM, but losing AotL is not inconsequential. When I tried it (was in Slaver's HM) not having AotL was immediately apparent. It's not about the one extra minion or +1 Death Magic. It's about being able to raise multiple tough minions at a time together with the ability to raise minions out of nothing. Another problem with BiP is that it requires health sacrifice, which tends to tax the builds I run simply because there's little direct bar push.

I guess it's up to player choice, although the teambuild will have to change to accomodate BiP. That said, I'm of opinion that Mesmers, who already have fine energy management skills in Inspiration that double as good utility to boot (Power Drain / Leech Signet / Drain Enchant especially), should just use those skills and free up the elite slot for something else.

Wenspire · May 19, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I would like to add, a downside to relying on bip for energy is that it's a shatterable/removable enchantment. When that happens, I would think you'd be working with useless casters while they work to regain EN. That is unless the hero ai is smart enough to immediately reapply it.

Plutoman · May 19, 2011, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would like to add, a downside to relying on bip for energy is that it's a shatterable/removable enchantment. When that happens, I would think you'd be working with useless casters while they work to regain EN. That is unless the hero ai is smart enough to immediately reapply it.

They apply it based upon energy thresholds (how low a hero is on energy), and based upon health. If it's stripped, it's reapplied providing the BiP hero has enough health to adequately do the sac.

In some areas that can be troublesome (ie, dream riders with shatter, huge spikes every time it goes up) but in the areas that it would be troublesome you'll have a good source of protection, too, and if the team is right for it, it'll be more helpful than not. You don't have many groups of mesmers running shatter, though you run across a couple in balanced groups.

The Josip · May 19, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

So what I am gathering here...is that if using mesmers (player and/or heros) a BiP is must have?

That's it. I realized that after typing 10 posts with the same content, plus 10 another posts of other people with same content, there must be a reason why things are not getting through and it's shown in the above quote: lack of comprehension.

Essence Snow - if you don't use BiP you're a newbie or oldtimer, that's obvious. BiP is uber and must have skill for all modern iPoders who follow trends. Not using BiP means you're so yesterday.

Others - BiP is horrible, your BiPer will keep dying, and his BiPs will be shattered and your caster will be useless, resulting in a death of a Somalian child. Beep is sheet. BiPer is a black hope, it's infiltrated disciple of Shiro whose sole goal is to sabotage your team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would like to add, a downside to relying on bip for energy is that it's a shatterable/removable enchantment. When that happens, I would think you'd be working with useless casters while they work to regain EN.

Yes, because when a caster loses +5e regen and still has 4 regen, that's useless. But if caster has sheet e-regen like Power Drain which will succeed once in 40seconds if you're lucky, possibly overlapping with other interrupts or taking oppurtunity for Mistrust/CoF, using attribute points and locking secondary to.. Me/Me - then that's absolutely amazing.

--

Be seeing you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY9oWfkKt6A

Essence Snow · May 19, 2011, 09:00 PM // 21:00

If I may might I ask 1 quick question......What mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that bip gives?

Wenspire · May 19, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yes, because when a caster loses +5e regen and still has 4 regen, that's useless. But if caster has sheet e-regen like Power Drain which will succeed once in 40seconds if you're lucky, possibly overlapping with other interrupts or taking oppurtunity for Mistrust/CoF, using attribute points and locking secondary to.. Me/Me - then that's absolutely amazing.

Sounds about right when one is running a build (or group build) with poor EN management. Thanks for confirming!

maxxfury · May 19, 2011, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

If I may might I ask 1 quick question......What mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that bip gives?

the same mobs that people put Eman skills on their heroes?? or do people NOT take Eman skills on their heroes at all now?...

... cos they are using BIP more as a replacement for the heroes own Eman skills so they can take more utility in the slots...

bhavv · May 19, 2011, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

If I may might I ask 1 quick question......What mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that bip gives?

This is a rather incorrect assumption. Very few mobs last long enough in FoW for me for Bip / energy management to make any difference in the space of a single battle. HOWEVER no one wants to stand around in between mobs waiting for their energy to refill. You kill one, and go straight to the next, your heroes are not going to have much time to refill their energy without E management unless they are necros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

@bhavv: I don't think your choice of prots are good even though you have lots of red barring. With enough prots, you can make do with fewer red barring skills. As an example, I had only 2 half healers but I had fewer deaths when I cleared foundry, than you had in FoW.

I suggest that you replace your Protective Spirit with a Dwaynaway's ST rit (http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi), and make one of your mesmers a /P with SYG, given your team setup. Should be easy for you to fix that since you have mercs.

Prot Spirit alone, or Prot Bond has been fine for me in FoW. I'm using a Fiery Sunspear and Serrated Shield on each hero that gives +15 armor against physicals, and my blind is AoEd by using fevered dreams. I cant drop the signet mesmer because thats actually my primary source of spammable armor ignoring AoE. The signet mesmer actually can carry prot bond and I could put that on myself and the bip, but this will require manual casting which would slow me down and make the comparisons unfair. I normally play an E/Mo protter in places where I need more protection, but FoW doesnt.

FoW is a lot easier than other elite areas, it doesnt need a prot elly or a ST rit to easily complete, and running a prot elly all the time feels too tiring, I want a nice a simple build like Invoke or Thunderclap now.

Jeydra · May 20, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

To call BiP blindingly obviously a good skill is a little short-sighted I think.

Sure, +5 energy regeneration is good, we can all agree on that.

But what do you actually gain and do you need it?

You arguably free up 2 slots on domination mesmers, although I think it's very debatable whether you really want to drop all energy management. What do you use for these 2 slots that improves their damage output? Most hard-hitting skills are already on the bar.

I didn't call BiP blindingly obviously good. But bhaav implied it was blindingly obviously bad.

What skills improve Dom Mes damage output -> Power Spike, Shatter Delusions, Signet of Disruption, Overload, etc etc etc.

You could have the same player run the different builds twice, but it doesn't eliminate player bias ... or stop people from running bad builds where BiP makes less of a difference (like Thunderclap

). In this case though we're in luck, because I have Raisu Palace screenshots where I was pushing for max speed. When I get the time I'll run through Raisu again with BiP. I'm betting I'll get a time <8:30, but we'll see. If I do run through FoW - I'm not planning to, however, since it takes way more than 30 minutes - I bet I'll get a time less than 1 hour 28 minutes. bhaav's build doesn't have double Fall Back, which curiously enough by his definition of effectiveness makes it ineffective.

Funnily enough I don't plan on using BiP to support Mesmers ...

@Essence Snow - multiple aggro and DoA Titan spawns pop to mind. With ~40 max energy you can burn dry in less than a minute too. Turn the question around: what mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that pdrain gives?

Plutoman · May 20, 2011, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

FoW is a lot easier than other elite areas, it doesnt need a prot elly or a ST rit to easily complete, and running a prot elly all the time feels too tiring, I want a nice a simple build like Invoke or Thunderclap now.

I can relate. Prot ele gets boring after a while, though it's one of the most powerful builds a player ele can run, even solo healing.. there's only so much of it to be done.

@Jeydra - Thunderclap's a semi-viable elite. Not the best choice in my opinion, but reasonable at least. There's worse options to be sure. AoE daze is pretty nice.

Essence Snow · May 20, 2011, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Essence Snow - multiple aggro and DoA Titan spawns pop to mind. With ~40 max energy you can burn dry in less than a minute too. Turn the question around: what mobs are ya'll facing that live long enough to need the added e management that pdrain gives?

Tbh idk...Ive never had any issue dispatching of mobs so I really havent really paid that much attention to my heros energy. It is highly a possiblity that they dont need it at all. Either way it's a dual purpose skill...i.e. it cancels out a foe's spell and regains energy....or win/win for short at least in theory.

W/o proper aggro control I'll agree the titans can drain an energy pool, but then again w/o proper aggro control they can do much worse.